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ACE SNMP vservers

osiristrading
Level 1
Level 1

Anyone know if one can obtain # connections to a particular vserver via SNMP. I've got the vserver connections but I can't seem to find any SNMP information about rservers.

1 Accepted Solution

Accepted Solutions

Sachin

I am afraid you didnt understand the question :)

Anyways

Rserver connections:

cesServerFarmRserverTable (CISCO-ENHANCED-SLB-MIB)

VIP Connections:

slbVServerInfoTable (CISCO-SLB-MIB)

Thanks

Syed

View solution in original post

14 Replies 14

sachinga.hcl
Level 4
Level 4

Hi Osiris,

create custom probe(or scripted probe)like:

"type" = "custom-snmp"

"package" = "com.viacom"

"probe_name" = "snmp.ace"

"human_name" = "Cisco ACE Module"

"version" = "2.0"

"address_type" = "IP,AT"

"port_number" = "161"

display_name = "Miscellaneous/ACE Module Probe"

-- none

\GB\Prototype SNMP Probe\P\

This probe will monitor The Cisco ACE Module CPU, memory and global conection parameters

-- Parameters are user-settable values that the probe uses for its comparisons.

"Parameter1" = "1" -- Description of Parameter1

"Parameter2" = "2" -- Description of Parameter2

...

...

-- SNMP values to be retrieved from the device, and

-- Specify the variable name, its OID, a format (usually DEFAULT) and a short

description.

-- CALCULATION variables are computed from other values already retrieved from

the device.

entPhysicalSoftwareRev, 1.3.6.1.2.1.47.1.1.1.1.10.1, INTEGER,

"software version"

cpmCPUTotal1minRev, 1.3.6.1.4.1.9.9.109.1.1.1.1.7.1,

INTEGER, "CPU 1 minute"

cpmCPUTotal5minRev, 1.3.6.1.4.1.9.9.109.1.1.1.1.8.1,

INTEGER, "CPU 5 minute"

cpmProcExtMemAllocatedRev, 1.3.6.1.4.1.9.9.109.1.2.3.1.1.1.1,INTEGER,

"available memory"

cefcModuleUpTime, 1.3.6.1.4.1.9.9.117.1.2.1.1.8.1,

INTEGER, "ACE uptime"

slbStatsCreatedConnections, 1.3.6.1.4.1.9.9.161.1.1.1.1.6.9,

per-minute, "TCP and UDP CreatedConnections"

slbStatsEstablishedConnections, 1.3.6.1.4.1.9.9.161.1.1.1.1.8.9,

per-minute, "TCP EstablishedConnections"

slbStatsDestroyedConnections, 1.3.6.1.4.1.9.9.161.1.1.1.1.10.9,

per-minute, "TCP and UDP DestroyedConnections"

slbStatsReassignedConnections, 1.3.6.1.4.1.9.9.161.1.1.1.1.12.9, per-minute,

"TCP and UDP ReassignedConnections"

cslbxStatsCurrConnections, 1.3.6.1.4.1.9.9.254.1.1.1.1.3.9,

per-minute, "The number of connections currently still open."

cslbxStatsFailedConns, 1.3.6.1.4.1.9.9.254.1.1.1.1.5.9,

per-minute, "The number of connections balanced to real servers that then

failed to respond."

cslbxStatsHttpRedirectConns, 1.3.6.1.4.1.9.9.254.1.1.1.1.12.9,

per-minute, "connections made to HTTP redirect servers."

cslbxStatsDroppedRedirectConns, 1.3.6.1.4.1.9.9.254.1.1.1.1.13.9,

per-minute, "connections dropped by HTTP redirect servers."

-- The the text that will be appended

-- to the device's Staus Window.

\4\ entPhysicalSoftwareRev:\0\ ${entPhysicalSoftwareRev}

\4\ CPU Total 1min:\0\ ${cpmCPUTotal1minRev}

\4\ CPU Total 5min:\0\ ${cpmCPUTotal5minRev}

\4\ alloc free mem:\0\ ${cpmProcExtMemAllocatedRev}

\4\ ACE ModuleUp Time:\0\ ${cefcModuleUpTime}

\4\ Created Connections:\0\ ${slbStatsCreatedConnections}

\4\ Established Connections:\0\ ${slbStatsEstablishedConnections}

\4\ Destroyed Connections:\0\ ${slbStatsDestroyedConnections}

\4\ Reassigned Connections:\0\ ${slbStatsReassignedConnections}

\4\ Curr Connections:\0\ ${cslbxStatsCurrConnections}

\4\ Failed Conns:\0\ ${cslbxStatsFailedConns}

\4\ Http RedirectConns:\0\ ${cslbxStatsHttpRedirectConns}

\4\ Dropped RedirectConns:\0\ ${cslbxStatsDroppedRedirectConns}

Cheers!!

Sachin

Sachin,

Where would we attach this probe to? Could you please attach a sample config?

John...

Page 1 of 4

HI ,

Before you can run a probe script, you must copy the script onto the ACE, configure a script probe, and then associate the script with the probe.

1. Copy the script into the disk0: directory on the ACE. For example, to copy a script from an FTP server to the ACE and rename it to ACETCL, enter:

host1/Admin# copy ftp://192.168.1.1/test1/ECHO_PROBE_SCRIPT

disk0:ACETCL

Enter username:

At the prompt, you must provide a username for the server.

Note The filename that you assign the script must be unique across the contexts. You will use this filename when you load the script into the ACE memory and configure the probe.

2. If you are operating in multiple contexts, observe the CLI prompt to verify that you are operating in the desired context. If necessary, change to, or directly log in to, the correct context.

host1/Admin# changeto C1

host1/C1#

3. Enter configuration mode.

host1/Admin# config

Enter configuration commands, one per line. End with CNTL/Z

host1/Admin(config)#

4. Load the script into the ACE memory.

host1/Admin(config)# script file 22 ACETCL

5. Create a scripted probe.

host1/Admin(config)# probe scripted test1

host1/Admin(config-probe-scripted)# interval 10

host1/Admin(config-probe-scripted)# script ACETCL

host1/Admin(config-probe-scripted)# exit

6. Create a real server and a server farm. Associate the probe and real server to the server farm.

host1/Admin(config)# rserver host test

host1/Admin(config-rfarm)# ip address 10.1.0.105

host1/Admin(config-rfarm)# inservice

host1/Admin(config-rfarm)# exit

host1/Admin(config)# serverfarm host tests

host1/Admin(config-sfarm-host)# probe test1

host1/Admin(config-sfarm-host)# rserver test

host1/Admin(config-sfarm-host-rs)# inservice

host1/Admin(config-sfarm-host-rs)# Ctrl-z

At this point, the script probe should be running.

7. Use the show probe detail command in Exec mode to ensure that the script is running

8. Stop the script probe.

host1/Admin# config

host1/Admin(config)# serverfarm host test

host1/Admin(config-sfarm-host)# no probe test1

host1/Admin(config-sfarm-host)# exit

Contd.....

page 2 of 4

You load scripts onto the ACE through script files. A script file contains only one script. The ACE supports supports the configuration of 256 unique script files.

When using scripts on the ACE, the following considerations apply:

•Each script is always identified by its unique name as defined when copying the script file into the ACE disk0: file system. The script name must be unique across contexts.

•During probe configuration, you can assign a script to a probe. If the script is unavailable at that time, the probe attempts to execute the script and returns an error code. If this situation occurs, a syslog message displays to indicate the probe failure and why the probe failed. If the script is unavailable due to an error when loading the script, a syslog message would indicate the script load failure. You can also use the show script command to display the exit codes.

Copying Scripts to the ACE

You can copy a script from a server to the ACE disk0: file system by using the copy command in Exec mode. You can also copy the file from the supervisor engine to the ACE.

Because of virtualization, by default, a script file is copied into the directory for context that you are currently accessing. A script file in one context cannot be seen from another context. For details about virtualization, see the Cisco 4700 Series Application Control Engine Appliance Virtualization Configuration Guide. The syntax of this command is as follows:

copy [ftp://server/path | tftp://server[:port]/path | sftp://[username@]server/path] disk0:filename

The keywords and arguments are as follows:

•ftp://server/path-Specifies the File Transfer Protocol (FTP) network server and the source location of the script file including its filename.

•tftp: //server[:port]/path]-Specifies the Trivial File Transfer Protocol (TFTP) network server and the source location of the script file including its filename.

•sftp:[//[username@]server][/path]-Specifies the Secure Trivial File Transfer Protocol (SFTP) network server and the source location of the script file including its filename.

•disk0:filename-Specifies the destination filename for the script on the ACE disk0: file system. If you do not enter a filename, you are prompted to enter a filename or accept the source filename. You will use this filename when you load the script into the ACE memory and configure the probe.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note The filename that you assign to the script must be unique across the contexts.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For example, to copy a script from an FTP server to the ACE, enter:

host1/Admin# copy ftp://192.168.1.1/test1/FTP_PROBE_SCRIPT

disk0:ftp1.tcl

Enter username:

At the prompt, you must provide a username for the server.

You can also copy the zipped sample scripts file for the ACE onto disk0:. After you copy the zipped file, use the gunzip command in Exec mode to unzip its contents.

Contd.....

Page 3 of 4

Troubleshooting an SNMP Probe Issue

In this scenario, you have configured an SNMP probe, but the Last disconnect err field indicates that the sum of the weights does not add up to the maximum weight value as displayed in the output of the show probe detail command.

1. Display the probe status details by entering the following command:

ACE_module5/test# show probe detail

probe : SNMP_PROBE

type : SNMP

state : ACTIVE

description : snmp probe

----------------------------------------------

port : 161 address : 0.0.0.0 addr type : -

interval : 15 pass intvl : 10 pass count : 3

fail count: 3 recv timeout: 10

version : 2c community : test_comm

oid string #1 : .1.3.6.1.2.1.4.3.0

type : ABSOLUTE max value : 1000000000

weight : 10000 threshold : 1000000000

------------------ probe results ------------------

associations ip-address port porttype probes failed passed health

------------ ---------------+-----+--------+--------+--------+--------+------

serverfarm : least-loaded, predictor least-loaded

real : SERVER1[0]

192.168.10.45 161 -- 0 0 0 INIT

Socket state : CLOSED

No. Passed states : 0 No. Failed states : 0

No. Probes skipped : 0 Last status code : 0

No. Out of Sockets : 0 No. Internal error: 30

Last disconnect err : Sum of weights don't add up to max weight value <------- Error condition

Last probe time : Never

Last fail time : Never

Last active time : Never

Server load : 16000 <------- Note the server load value

The reason for this error is that the weight command needs to be configured when you have multiple OIDs configured for a single probe and from those OIDs if you want to give priority to a specific OID.

The sum of the weights should equal 16000 (see the Server Load field). For a single OID, the weight command does not have any significance.

2. Display the probe configuration by entering the following command:

ACE_module5/Admin# show runnig-config probe

probe snmp SNMP_PROBE

description snmp probe

port 161

interval 15

passdetect interval 10

version 2c

community TEST_COMM

oid .1.3.6.1.2.1.4.3.0

type absolute max 1000000000

weight 10000 <-------

In the above configuration, the weight is configured as 10000 for a single OID. The ACE is expecting another OID to be configured in the probe and the sum of both weights should equal 16000.

The configuration is not complete and the ACE is expecting additional parameters in the probe configuration. Because there is not another OID in the configuration, the ACE is not able to calculate the load and that is why the "Sum of weights don't add up to max weight value" error message appears.

Contd......

Page 4 of 4

3. Resolve the issue by modifying the probe configuration as follows:

probe snmp SNMP_PROBE

description test

port 161

interval 15

passdetect interval 60

version 2c

community test_comm

oid .1.3.6.1.2.1.4.3.0

type absolute max 1000000000

weight 10000

oid .1.3.6.1.2.1.4.10.0

type absolute max 1000000000

weight 6000 <------- 10000 + 6000 = 16000

4. Display the probe status details again by entering the following command:

ACE_module5/test# show probe SNMP_PROBE detail

probe : snmp1

type : SNMP

state : ACTIVE

description : snmp probe

----------------------------------------------

port : 161 address : 0.0.0.0 addr type : -

interval : 15 pass intvl : 10 pass count : 3

fail count: 3 recv timeout: 10

version : 2c community : test_comm

oid string #1 : .1.3.6.1.2.1.4.3.0

type : ABSOLUTE max value : 1000000000

weight : 10000 threshold : 1000000000

oid string #2 : .1.3.6.1.2.1.4.10.0

type : ABSOLUTE max value : 1000000000

weight : 6000 threshold : 1000000000

------------------ probe results ------------------

associations ip-address port porttype probes failed passed health

------------ ---------------+-----+--------+--------+--------+--------+------

serverfarm : least-loaded, predictor least-loaded

real : SERVER1[0]

192.168.10.45 161 -- 4143 0 4143 SUCCESS

Socket state : CLOSED

No. Passed states : 1 No. Failed states : 0

No. Probes skipped : 0 Last status code : 0

No. Out of Sockets : 0 No. Internal error: 0

Last disconnect err : - <------- No error indicated now. The probe is successful.

Last probe time : Mon Apr 6 09:12:54 2009

Last fail time : Never

Last active time : Sun Apr 5 15:57:28 2009

Server load : 0

Using the Last Status Code Field

Details regarding the last status code field can be provided for nontrivial probes. For example, in the case of scripted probe PROBENOTICE_PROBE, the status code 30001 means that the probe is successful and the value 30002 indicates an error in probe arguments. The last disconnect error for status code 30002 displays "Did not receive correct response from the server," but the actual issue is related to arguments in the probe configuration, which can be checked by looking at the script for the probe.

ACE_module5/Admin# show probe TEST detail

probe : TEST

type : SCRIPTED

state : ACTIVE

description :

----------------------------------------------

port : 0 address : 0.0.0.0 addr type : -

interval : 15 pass intvl : 20 pass count : 3

fail count: 3 recv timeout: 10

script filename : PROBENOTICE_PROBE

--------------------- probe results --------------------

probe association probed-address probes failed passed health

------------------- ---------------+----------+----------+----------+-------

serverfarm : sf1

real : rs2[0]

23.0.0.5 4082 54 4028 SUCCESS

Socket state : RESET

No. Passed states : 6 No. Failed states : 5

No. Probes skipped : 8 Last status code : 30001 <------- Indicates success

No. Out of Sockets : 0 No. Internal error: 0

Last disconnect err : -

Last probe time : Wed Apr 8 04:44:41 2009

Last fail time : Tue Apr 7 12:02:10 2009

Last active time : Tue Apr 7 12:03:45 2009

-----The end -----

Sachin Garg

Kindly find below a sample non-scripted probe for SNMP and UDP added to serverfarm as follows:

------START----

access-list ACL1 line 10 extended permit ip any any

probe udp UDP

interval 5

passdetect interval 10

description THIS PROBE IS INTENDED FOR LOAD BALANCING DNS TRAFFIC

port 53

send-data UDP_TEST

probe snmp SNMP_PROBE

description test

port 161

interval 15

passdetect interval 60

version 2c

community test_comm

oid .1.3.6.1.2.1.4.3.0

type absolute max 1000000000

weight 10000

oid .1.3.6.1.2.1.4.10.0

type absolute max 1000000000

weight 6000 <------- 10000 + 6000 = 16000

rserver host SERVER1

ip address 192.168.10.45

inservice

rserver host SERVER2

ip address 192.168.10.46

inservice

rserver host SERVER3

ip address 192.168.10.47

inservice

serverfarm host SFARM1

probe UDP

probe SNMP_PROBE

rserver SERVER1

inservice

rserver SERVER2

inservice

rserver SERVER3

inservice

class-map match-all L4UDP-VIP_114:UDP_CLASS

2 match virtual-address 192.168.120.114 udp eq 53

policy-map type loadbalance first-match L7PLBSF_UDP_POLICY

class class-default

serverfarm SFARM1

policy-map multi-match L4SH-Gold-VIPs_POLICY

class L4UDP-VIP_114:UDP_CLASS

loadbalance vip inservice

loadbalance policy L7PLBSF_UDP_POLICY

loadbalance vip icmp-reply

nat dynamic 1 vlan 120

connection advanced-options 1SECOND-IDLE

interface vlan 120

description Upstream VLAN_120 - Clients and VIPs

ip address 192.168.120.1 255.255.255.0

fragment chain 20

fragment min-mtu 68

access-group input ACL1

nat-pool 1 192.168.120.70 192.168.120.70 netmask 255.255.255.0 pat

service-policy input L4SH-Gold-VIPs_POLICY

no shutdown

ip route 10.1.0.0 255.255.255.0 192.168.120.254

-------END-------

Sachin Garg

Kindly find below a prototype for configuring a SNMP probe from Scratch:

"type" = "custom-snmp"

"package" = "com.dartware"

"probe_name" = "snmp.prototype"

"human_name" = "Prototype SNMP probe"

"version" = "1.0"

"address_type" = "IP,AT"

"port_number" = "161"

display_name = "Miscellaneous/Prototype SNMP Probe"

-- none required

\GB\Prototype SNMP Probe\P\

This is a prototype SNMP probe for InterMapper. It doesn't do anything as is, but can be used as the basis for a new probe.

This section contains text that will be displayed to the customer in the probe configuration window.

Describe the probe as much as necessary so that people will understand what it does and how it works.

-- Parameters are user-settable values that the probe uses for its comparisons.

-- Specify the default values here. The customer can change them and they will be retained for each device.

"Parameter1" = "1" -- Description of Parameter1

"Parameter2" = "2" -- Description of Parameter2

"Parameter3" = "3" -- Description of Parameter3

-- SNMP values to be retrieved from the device, and

-- Specify the variable name, its OID, a format (usually DEFAULT) and a short description.

-- CALCULATION variables are computed from other values already retrieved from the device.

sysDescr, 1.3.6.1.2.1.1.1.0 , DEFAULT, "System's Description"

myOID, 1.3.6.1.2.1.1.3.0 , INTEGER, "Legend text if this were charted"

myOIDCalc, (($myOID-32)*5/9 ), CALCULATION, "A calculated value"

-- Specify rules for setting the device into Alarm or Warning state

alarm: $myOID < $Parameter1 "Condition string if this expression is true"

warning: $myOID < $Parameter2 "Condition string if this is true"

-- The section specifies the text that will be appended

-- to the device's Staus Window.

\B5\Prototype SNMP Probe\0P\ \U2=http://${deviceaddress}\Go to the device's web page\P0\

\4\ Parameter1:\0\ $Parameter1

\4\ Parameter2:\0\ $Parameter2

\4\ Parameter3:\0\ $Parameter3

\4\ myOID:\0\ $myOID \3G\GHz\mp0\

\4\ myOIDCalc:\0\ $myOIDCalc \3\minutes (\0\$sysUptime \3\ hundredths of seconds)\p\

Sachin Garg

Example Custom SNMP Probe Page 1 of 2

-- WARNING: This probe is provided as an example, of a custom probe. It is a tutorial

-- and therefore is wordier than your real probe needs to be.

--

-- You should use the "Prototype Custom SNMP Probe" as the basis for all new probe work.

-- It's simpler, and you won't have to "rip anything out" as you begin.

"type" = "custom-snmp"

"package" = "com.dartware"

"probe_name" = "snmp.example"

"human_name" = "Example SNMP probe"

"version" = "1.0"

"address_type" = "IP,AT"

"port_number" = "161"

display_name = "Miscellaneous/Example SNMP Probe"

-- none required; see the Developer Guide for the values that go here.

-- The contains text that will be displayed in the probe configuration window.

-- Describe the probe as much as necessary so that people will understand what it does and how it works.

\GB\Example SNMP Probe\P\

This probe is an example of an InterMapper Custom SNMP probe, and many of the features that are described in the Custom Probes section of the \u2=http://www.intermapper.com/docs/developer/index.html\Developer Guide\P0\. If you have questions about this probe, \u2=mailto:support@dartware.com\please contact us.\p0\

This probe probably isn't really useful for production work. However, it provides an example of various techniques available in custom SNMP probes.

It retrieves a few SNMP values from a device by specifying their OIDs and how to display those values in the device's Status Window.

The probe also has thresholds for setting the device into alarm or warning.

In this example, the device has will go into alarm or warning if it has been rebooted recently (controlled by the \i\RebootAlarm\p\ and \i\RebootWarn\p\ parameters - two and three minutes, by default) or if there aren't as many interfaces as expected in the ifTable (controlled by the \i\ExpectedInterfaces\p\ parameter.)

The parameters are:

\b\RebootAlarm\p\ Put the device into alarm if the sysUptime is less than this many minutes.

\b\RebootWarn\p\ Put the device into warning if the sysUptime is less than this many minutes.

\b\ExpectedInterfaces\p\ Put the device into warning if the the ifNumber is greater or equal to this value.

\b\InterfaceToMonitor\p\ is the ifIndex of the interface to monitor for traffic.

\b\TrafficWarn\p\ and

\b\TrafficAlarm\p\ are thresholds for traffic alarms on the named interface.

In addition, this probe shows:

- CALCULATION variables, the conversion from centi-seconds (hundredths of a second) to seconds

- Formatting of the Status Window, in the section

- Marking up text in the \i\description\p\ and \i\snmp-device-display\p\ sections using IMML (InterMapper Markup Language) to get bold, italic, colored text, etc.

- IMML also allows you to create a link to a URL, using the \\U2=http://xxxx\\ notation shown in the \i\snmp-device-display\p\ section.

-- Parameters are user-settable values that the probe uses for its comparisons.

-- Specify the default values here. The customer can change them and they will be retained for each device.

"RebootAlarm" = "2" -- 2 min = 120 seconds = 12,000 centi-seconds

"RebootWarn" = "3" -- 3 min = 180 seconds = 18,000 centi-seconds

"ExpectedInterfaces" = "3" -- expected number of interfaces

"InterfaceToMonitor" = "1" -- Interface to monitor for traffic

"TrafficWarn" = "200" -- traffic to get a warning

"TrafficAlarm" = "1000" -- traffic to get an alarm

Contd.....

Example Custom SNMP Probe Page 2 of 2

-- SNMP values to be retrieved from the device, and

-- Specify the variable name, its OID, a format (usually DEFAULT) and a short description.

-- CALCULATION variables are computed from other values already retrieved from the device.

sysDescr, 1.3.6.1.2.1.1.1.0 , DEFAULT, "System's Description"

sysUptime, 1.3.6.1.2.1.1.3.0 , INTEGER, "Uptime - in centi-seconds"

sysContact, 1.3.6.1.2.1.1.4.0 , DEFAULT, "Name of person to contact"

sysName, 1.3.6.1.2.1.1.5.0 , DEFAULT, "Name assigned to system"

sysLocation, 1.3.6.1.2.1.1.6.0 , DEFAULT, "Location of the system"

ifNumber, 1.3.6.1.2.1.2.1.0 , DEFAULT, "Num. of rows in the ifTable"

ifInOctets1, 1.3.6.1.2.1.2.2.1.10.$InterfaceToMonitor,PER-SECOND, "Number of received octets on interface 1"

sysUptimeMinutes, ($sysUpTime / (100 * 60)), CALCULATION, "Uptime in minutes"

-- Specify rules for setting the device into Alarm or Warning state

alarm: $ifInOctets1 > $TrafficAlarm "Traffic above the alarm threshold"

alarm: $sysUptimeMinutes < $RebootAlarm "Rebooted less than $RebootAlarm minutes ago"

warning: $ifInOctets1 > $TrafficWarn "Traffic above the warning threshold"

warning: $sysUptimeMinutes < $RebootWarn "Rebooted less than $RebootAlarm minutes ago"

warning: $ifNumber != $ExpectedInterfaces "Not as many interfaces as expected"

-- The section specifies the text that will be appended

-- to the device's Staus Window.

\B5\Prototype SNMP Probe\0P\ \U2=http://${deviceaddress}\Go to the device's web page\P0\

\4\ sysDescr:\0\ $sysDescr

\4\ sysContact:\0\ $sysContact

\4\ sysName:\0\ $sysName

\4\ sysLocation:\0\ $sysLocation

\4\ sysUpTime:\0\ $sysUptimeMinutes \3\minutes (\0\$sysUptime \3\ hundredths of seconds)\p\

\4\Num. of Intf:\0\ $ifNumber \3\(expected $ExpectedInterfaces)\0\

\4\Input traffic:\0\ $ifInOctets1 \3\(bytes/second)\0\

-----End of page 2.......

Sachn garg

Sachin,

You have completely blown my mind. I promise that I will take the time to digest the information and rate each of your post.

Many Thanks,

John...

Sachin

I am afraid you didnt understand the question :)

Anyways

Rserver connections:

cesServerFarmRserverTable (CISCO-ENHANCED-SLB-MIB)

VIP Connections:

slbVServerInfoTable (CISCO-SLB-MIB)

Thanks

Syed

Thanks Syed, that's what I was looking for.

Sachin, thanks for the useful information nonetheless - will come in handy no doubt.

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