This discussion is locked


Unanswered Question
Mar 26th, 2010

Welcome to the Cisco Networking Professionals Ask the Expert conversation. This is an opportunity to learn how XMPP and CSF are implemented in next version of CUPS, CUPC and other UC clients with Cisco expert Michael Luo. Michael is a senior technical assistance center engineer at Cisco Systems, Inc. He works in the unified communication team which covers CUCM(CallManager), CUPS (Unified Presence), CER(Emergency REsponder/e911), etc. Before that, he worked in UCCX (IPCC Express) team. Michael has more than 15 years of experience in IT industry. Michael worked in China, Hong Kong and US for many IT vendors such as Novell, Sun, Avaya, Cisco. He holds many IT certifications such as CCIE (#6183, Routing & Switching), MCSE, MCNE, OCP, JNCIE. Michael is also a Cisco certified specialist on UCCX and CUPS and is the author of the book, "Deploying Cisco Unified Presence."

Remember to use the rating system to let Michael know if you have received an adequate response.

Michael might not be able to answer each question due to the volume expected during this event. Our moderators will post many of the unanswered questions in other discussion forums shortly after the event. This event lasts through April 9, 2010. Visit this forum often to view responses to your questions and the questions of other community members.

I have this problem too.
0 votes
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Overall Rating: 4.9 (7 ratings)
Aaron Harrison Sat, 03/27/2010 - 06:21

Hi Michael

Are you aware of future development plans for CUPC?

One of the really annoying things about it is the video support - in softphone mode, you get video control, but in deskphone mode you lose control of video and have to use VTA in conjunction with CUPC to get any video at all.

I have been wondering if this is roadmapped to be fixed - e.g. preferably just do point-to-point video based on the two CUPC endpoints realising that they have an active deskphone-deskphone (or deskphone-softphone) conversation? Or even VTA style phone detection, thought that would give less deployment flexibility..



htluo Sat, 03/27/2010 - 07:08

Hi Aaron,

The video feature has been built in CUPC 8.0, targeted to be shipped in two months.  Yes, it has CUVA (VTA) feature built in.  You don't need separate VTA to do desk phone video.  Not enough?  It supports HD video (720p 30fps)!

In Desk Phone mode, PC-to-Phone connection is required.  This is to make sure the video synchronized with voice.  Otherwise, you'll see funny things like your buddy has stopped talking but his mouth is still moving.

CUPC 8.0 was built on CSF (Client Service Framework) technology.  CSF is a common framework provides UC features like voice, video, voicemail, directory service, presence, instant messaging, etc.  CSF can be used by different applications, such as CUPC, CUCIMOC, CUCI Connect, web phone, wireless headset, etc.

CSF to UC applications is like IOS to Cisco routers.


yogan.patel Fri, 04/09/2010 - 10:27

Can you use CSF to bring presence into web applications or any other third-party applications?

If my company had some application into which we wanted to integrate presence - would it be possible to capture AND update presence information?

Also - how does CUPS v8.0 handle presence? Is there an internal database that stores the content? If so, can this be offloaded for large deployments?

Aaron Harrison Sat, 03/27/2010 - 07:19


Good stuff - I'm on the 8.0 beta so will look forward to testing that..

Are there any more new features we can look forward to in the new client?



htluo Sat, 03/27/2010 - 07:24

Other new features are majorly IM features:

  • Group Chat
  • Persistent Chat Room
  • Offline IM
  • 3rd-party IM client support

Some other stuffs are:

  • Visual Voicemail
  • Video conferencing and TelePresence Integration
  • SRST Failover
  • Click to Call from many applications (not just Outlook)


Aaron Harrison Sat, 03/27/2010 - 07:50

Hi Michael

Ah... Outlook you say?

On that subject, is it possible to dial from the GAL?

For example: I email you, and we're from the same AD Domain, so you can see my AD phone attributes if you right click me in the 'From' field.

Can you dial me from the context menu, without first adding me to your personal Contacts?

In the current release you have to add someone to contacts before the CUPC toolbar will allow dialing - whilst this works, it means any subsequent changes to numbers in AD aren't automatically kept up to date on the client.



htluo Sat, 03/27/2010 - 07:52

Oh...yes.  Forgot to mention another "feature".  The new CUPC should be able to dial GAL.  Old CUPC can only dial local contacts.  Thanks for pointing this out. 


kevinmccarron Tue, 03/30/2010 - 11:32


You mentioned video conferencing and telepresence integration. Will CSF 8.0 be based on standards relative to video. In other words, will it have the same video standard challenges that telepresence has had in the past, or will it interop with non-cisco h.323 clients and MCUs?



htluo Tue, 03/30/2010 - 13:27

Hmm.. that's a good question.

To be honest, I don't have the answer regarding interoperability.  CSF developers were busy enough just to make it work with Cisco products. 

But I believe this should be catered at some point.  If you ever noticed that Cisco introduced IME (Intercompany Media Engine) with UC 8.0 solution, which allows different companies exchange multi-media conents (such as video calls) even when they are using 3rd-party PBX.  Interoperability would be a key factor in the IME approach.


kevinmccarron Tue, 03/30/2010 - 13:29 you have any suggestion on a good avenue where I could pursue that question further?



htluo Tue, 03/30/2010 - 13:32

I'll check with the guys would built it.  At the meanwhile, if you have a Cisco account manager, you may also engage him.  He should refer you to the product marketing people who can answer those questions.


sirivoravith Sat, 03/27/2010 - 22:27

Hi michael,

do cisco had any plan to join CUPS to CUCM to the same box? cause it look like OCS R2 and Next version OCS 2014 were all in one integrated solution (IP Telephony,IM,Conference) and its look very friedly in end users perspective.

also as you share next CUPC client-it look like that Cisco plan to go to WebEx  , what 's the customer benefit? i'm mean all webex were on the clound ,and mostly customer really prefer Conference(Voice,Web,Video) on customer hosted, and is it possible to federation betweeen OCS,MSN and Jabber in current version?



htluo Sun, 03/28/2010 - 06:34

Joining CUPS to CUCM is more like a business decision other than technical.  I haven't heard anything yet.  Since both CUPS 8 and CUCM 8 is supported on VMWare, you could put them in a single box (VMWare). 

CUPC just "steal" the webex ball.  It's not going to webex.

Current version of CUPS is XMPP based.  It can federate with any XMPP compliant system, like Sametime, Jabber, GoogleTalk, etc.


zane.england Sun, 03/28/2010 - 17:51

Is there any plans to open the CSF API to 3rd party developers?

htluo Sun, 03/28/2010 - 19:27

You're right on.  CSF has serveral flavors:

  • CSF - For desktop applications, like CUPC, CUCIMOC, CUCI Connect, future CIPC, CUVA etc.
  • ThinCSF - For mobile devices, like cell phones, PDAs, wireless headsets, etc.
  • WebCSF - For web-based applications.
  • OpenCSF - API for 3rd-party developers.


yogan.patel Fri, 04/09/2010 - 10:36

Any plans in the new release for a thin-client?  Can I use Jabber IM or even the SIP/SIMPLE-based IM/Chat on a web app?

htluo Fri, 04/09/2010 - 11:18

In Cisco terms, "thinCSF" was used on mobile devices.  "webCSF" was used in web clients.

Yes, Cisco already have web clients that can do presence and chat.



Lukas Auer Sun, 03/28/2010 - 22:50

Hi Michael,

First, I have some questions to the built-in click to call functionality.
Is it true that 8.0 supports:
- shortcut dialing?
- TelURI?

And then another question regarding presence:
If I search for a user in CUPC, I get a list of all matches in AD but I cannot directly see their presence status.
I'd first have to right click > contact details or add them to my buddy list. Will CUPC 8.0 display presence already as early as in the search results?

If I have a WebEx MeetingCenter account, can I integrate WebEx functionality using the new WebEx button?

And then one last question: Does CUPC 8.0 come with a "transfer" button?
If not, can we expect it to appear in 8.5?

Thanks a lot.


htluo Mon, 03/29/2010 - 05:40
  • Click-to-Call

CUPC 8 utilizes Microsoft SmartTag to retrieve phone numbers.  It's the same as Cisco Click-to-Call widget.  It supports shortcut dial.  I'm not sure about Tel URI though.  I'll test and update.

  • Directory Presence

Yes, CUPC 8 will display presence on directory search.

  • Webex Button

Webex feature was there since CUPC 7.  Whether to put it on the "Webex ball" is undetermined.

  • Transfer button

There's no "transfer" button on CUPC 8.  I'll check with developer to see if it can be built.



Zarko Acimovic Mon, 03/29/2010 - 11:01

Can you please explain how XMPP integrates with existing Presence Engine and SIP Proxy services? You have great examples in your book with log files that explain how Presence Engine communicates with SIP Proxy service, so I would like too see same examples with XMPP, PE and SIP Proxy. Thanks

htluo Mon, 03/29/2010 - 12:25

With acquisition of Jabber Inc., Cisco incorporated Jabber XCP (Extensible Collaboration Platform) into CUPS.

The original Presence Engine (PE) and SIP Proxy (Proxy) are now categorized as RPS - Rich Presence Service.  The new XCP services are called XCP (of course).

RPS and XCP co-exist on CUPS 8.0.  There's a "emulation interface" between those two.  This is because the regular rich presence (phone presence, calendar presence) is still interfacing with Proxy and PE.

CUPS will support SIP and XMPP client simutaenously.  This will be the case until Cisco can "migrate" all SIP application to XMPP (more specific, phone presence and calendar).


tburke100 Fri, 04/09/2010 - 12:19

Hello Michael,

I am not real close to this topic, so please bear with me, but I have some "Big Picture" questions:

Is it accurate to say that SIMPLE is fading and XMPP is replacing it for IM and Presence?

If so, I am a little confused since I thought SIP was "the future" because it can do things like IM and Presence as well as call control. It seems like it was oversold by the SIP-worshippers.

In terms of acquiring skills for job security for the future, where are we headed? SIP for call control and XMPP for IM and Presence? Does SIP still have a strong future for call control at least?

Finally, isn't OCS still SIMPLE-based, or is MS moving to XMPP too?

Sorry for the philosophical questions, but I am just trying to gauge the future directions of the market so I can adapt accordingly.


htluo Fri, 04/09/2010 - 12:35

This is actually a very intersting topic.

In IT industry, it won't be surprising to see some technology was sung so high yesterday and fades out tomrrow.  If you're old enought, you should still remember Token-Ring, FDDI, and ATM.  Those were the network protocols "supposed" to be the future. 

XMPP was adopted by many big names like Google, Microsoft, Webex, IBM Sametime, etc.  Google even proposed a call control extension for XMPP (called Jingle).

However, XMPP is a pretty young protocol comparing with SIP (espeically on the call control side).  XMPP won't replace SIP overnight.

Cisco is also adopting XMPP in many products.  CUPS is just one of them.

I don't know how soon Cisco will use XMPP as call control.  But there will sure be a possibility.

OCS 2007 R2 is SIMPLE-based.  Microsoft provides a "XMPP Gateway" (add-on component) to interface with XMPP systems.

O'Reilly has a book called "XMPP: The Definitive Guide", which would be a good starting point for XMPP learning.


nandocesar Mon, 03/29/2010 - 17:13

Hi Michael,

I get a little bit confused with XMPP and CUPS version.

You said that "Current version of CUPS is XMPP based.  It can federate with any XMPP compliant system, like Sametime, Jabber, GoogleTalk, etc."

You are talking here about version 7 or 8?


htluo Mon, 03/29/2010 - 17:23

Sorry for the confusion.  I meant "CUPS 8 is XMPP based". 


nandocesar Mon, 03/29/2010 - 19:04

By the way, is it also possible to federate CUPS 7 with a XMPP system?

CUPS 8 will be compatible with CUCM 7?

Thanks again!


htluo Mon, 03/29/2010 - 19:37

You cannot federate CUPS 7 with XMPP system.  Because there's no XMPP features on CUPS 7 at all.  You may do SIP federation on CUPS 7 though.

CUPS 8 is compatible with with the following CUCM version:

5.0(4), 5.1(3), 6.0(1), 6.1(1), 6.1(2), 6.1(3), 6.1(4), 7.0(1), 7.0(2), 7.1(2), 7.1(3), 8.0(1)


Jonathan Schulenberg Tue, 03/30/2010 - 08:03

Are there any functionality improvements in the IP Phone Messenger application in 8.0 or pending for future releases? This interface seems to be lagging behind the CUPC application.

Also, for customers who are utilizing both interfaces, will there be preferences added in 8.0, or another future release, which would allow the user to specify which client(s) they want to receive messages on? For example, in CUPS 7 the behavior is somewhat inconsistant with how the two clients are typically used. If the user is logged into IPPM and CUPC when a new message arrives it may go to only CUPC, IPPM, or even both in a few cases. Users want to be able to control this behavior.

htluo Tue, 03/30/2010 - 08:10

You're right, IPPM was lagging.  It was said that the phone messenger feature would be built into CUCM.  Thus CUPS developer was in "wait-and-see" mode. 

Regarding the blocking policy, CUPS 8 should have more consistent behavior on that by utilizing Jabber/XMPP.  Blocking/Privacy was explicitly built in XMPP protocol.


Jonathan Schulenberg Tue, 03/30/2010 - 08:15

Your answer on IPPM being baked into UCM was in past tense. Has this decision been made and if so can you share what it was publically?

I was not referring to blocking in my previous message. I was referring to the client choosen for an incoming message of a new conversation. Example: Jane is logged into CUPC and IPPM. Joe sends a new message to Jane from CUPC. This message will most likely be displayed only on Jane's CUPC client. If Joe sends a message from IPPM, it seems to be displayed on both clients or just IPPM.  Users want to be able to control the behavior of what clients that message appears on. IPPM is most commonly utilized with 7921/7925 phones for users who may be mobile (e.g. Doctors). They do not want to have to log out of CUPC for messages to arrive on IPPM for example.

htluo Tue, 03/30/2010 - 08:30

Regarding UCM messaging feature, no official words yet.  Just rurmors

Regarding logging on multiple devices (or places) with the same account, Jabber/XMPP has a better support than SIP.

In XMPP, the user ID is usually referred as "JabberID" or "JID".  In the example of Jane, the JID could be:

1) [email protected]

2) [email protected]/cupc

3) [email protected]/phone

1) is called "bare JID".  2) and 3) is called "full JID".  "/cupc" and "/phone" is called "resource".  When you log in with same user ID from different devices, the "full JID" would be different.  The software (e.g. CUPS) would be able to determine which one it should send message to.

"resource" could also be locations like "/office", "/home".  Or it could be devices like "/TiVo", "/VCR".  So you can send command to your TiVo to record a show, without having that command showing up on CUPC. 



Always interesting to read your posts and get the latest on the techie-side of CUPS.  CUPS 8.0 bring some great features and I know my team here is excited for it.  Can you give us an idea when we can expect a release of it?  We're on 7.0(5) and look forward to having the upgrade available for download once available (hopefully won't have to wait for an order through PUT).

htluo Tue, 03/30/2010 - 10:43

Last time I checked, it was Apr 8, 2010.  Hopefully that would be the final date.

It should be downloadable from CCO.  But you'll need a "sw version" license for upgrade.  (It is not required for fresh install).

CUPS 8.0 is just a beginning.  Due to time constraint, most of the Jabber features were "locked" down in this version.  Cisco will "unlock" them bit by bit in later versions.


htluo Tue, 03/30/2010 - 11:38

All those three features you mentioned will work (kinda of).

On Jabber, you'll have hundreds of combinations regarding IM features.  On the first release of CUP 8.0, it's probably going to be limited to 3 due to client limitations (CUPC).  For example, you cannot set a password for the chat room or create an invisible chat room, etc.


Aaron Harrison Wed, 03/31/2010 - 04:17

Hi Michael

Re: compliance IM archiving in CUPS 8.0:

I see there seems to be two interfaces to this; export to (off-box) Postgres DB, and third party via XMPP? Is this correct?

If so, is there any way (i.e. a nice Cisco GUI) to access to the archived IM using the Postgres option, or is that additional customer/partner responsibility to set up?

Are there any Cisco-recommended third party solutions?



htluo Wed, 03/31/2010 - 05:04

In this release, Cisco does not provide or recommend any tools to access the archived IM.

Maybe it'll be there in next release (like CAR on CUCM?)


Aaron Harrison Wed, 03/31/2010 - 05:09

I see... but there is an XMPP interface to archiving? So there should be some third party stuff appearing?


htluo Wed, 03/31/2010 - 05:25

You may choose "3rd-party compliance server" option.  CUPS 8 works with Facetime (  I'm sure it provides many features you were asking for.


Aaron Harrison Wed, 03/31/2010 - 06:39

Hi Michael

Does CUPC 8.0 have any facility for adding groups from AD to the contacts list rather than just individuals?



htluo Wed, 03/31/2010 - 06:43

I believe that's on feature request but not implemented yet.  (this feature has been asked for more than 3 years) 



Now that some of the technical docs are out... I can see what you mean about limited functionality.  It looks like a lot of the functionality is offered as part of Jabber/XMPP being on-board CUPS now, but with CUPC being a strict SIP/SIMPLE client it cannot access these features.  I'm assuming that will be CUPC 8.  Any due date on that?  And I also heard something about CUMC 8 supporting chat as well.  I'm assuming that would mean Jabber integration with CUMC as well.  Any date on that integration.  For now it seems to access these functions it will required 3rd party clients (Pidgin, Adium, Vayusphere).  Thanks!


htluo Sat, 04/03/2010 - 10:17

CUPS 8.0.x will support two CUPC trains in parallel - CUPC 7.1.x and CUPC 8.0.x.

CUPC 7.1.x will be strict SIP/SIMPLE client as you pointed out.

CUPC 8.0.x will be XMPP/Jabber client.  ETA 5/31.

CUMC will be rebuilt on ThinCSF technology.  XMPP, of course will be supported.  No concrete ETA yet.

CUPS 8.0 has many Jabbers feature locked down - both for CUPC 8.0 and 3rd-party clients.  You'll be able to use basic features like group chat and persistent chat (either with CUPC 8 or 3rd-party clients).  But no fancy features like password protected chat room, hidden chat room, etc.


CHRIS CHARLEBOIS Wed, 03/31/2010 - 07:31

Any chance version 8 includes multi-tenant support?  We have 7.0 running in a multi-tenant environment by using multiple servers and disabling PUBLISH trunks, but A) it'd be nice to be able to support multiple tenants (i.e. multiple exchange servers/Active Directory domains) in one box (and not VMware), and B) I have to use Federation to allow users from on 'tenant' to see the presence and IM with users from another tenant.

htluo Wed, 03/31/2010 - 08:07

CUPS 8.0 does not have multi-tenant support.  This topic have been brought up to development.  But I guess it needs more requests from customers/partners to justify the decision.


Jason Granat Mon, 04/05/2010 - 12:48


This may be a little off topic, but any chance CUPC will be supported via CUCME as a softphone? Many customers run CUCME and want softphone support for Mac



This Discussion