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Mounting height for Cisco AIR-ANT2588P3M-N Antenna?

Answered Question
Feb 15th, 2014
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I'm deploying these at a manufactured home community.


I'm have been trying to understand how to read the radiation pattern but I just can't visualize it. The installation notes mention 5 to 10 feet above the roof line of surrounding structures, which would make my antenna placment roughly 20-25 above the ground. Seems kinda high..


Can somone help me visualize the signal spread of this antenna?


http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/wireless/antenna/installation/guide/ant2588p3m-n.html



Thanks!






Correct Answer by Scott Fella about 3 years 6 months ago

I've used both of those antennas and they work great. I would keep them around 15'-25' up if I were you. If your going to deploy 3 AP's in each mast, that might actually works okay. You should be able to work with Terrawave and maybe get a sample of an omni or patch so you can get an idea of the coverage. That is what I would do. You don't have to survey everything, but if you have a good idea of what the ap and antenna can give you, then you have at least an understanding of your coverage pattern.

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Correct Answer by Leo Laohoo about 3 years 6 months ago

Can somone help me visualize the signal spread of this antenna?

RED lines:  Place or lie this antenna on it's flat side.  The direction of the signal being thrown when it's on it's flat and wide side is what this line projects. 


BLUE lines:  Place or lie this antenna on it's thin side.  This is what the antenna pattern looks like. 


This means that this antenna is meant to be wall-mounted.  Not ceiling mounted.  Let's say you install this on a wall pointing straight in front and the Cisco logo is pointing UP. 


If you put your back to the wall, the antenna is right above your head, the RED line is the antenna signal being propagated from left to right.  The BLUE lines indicate the signal being spread from the floor up. 


Based on this, this means that the antenna can cover a wide horizontal arc (half moon) but the vertical arc is limited to a knife shape.  So you would want to take advantage of this by tilting this antenna DOWNWARDS.  Can't tell you how many degrees because this will be based entirely on how HIGH you install the antenna.


I'm with Scott.  Get someone to install this correctly.  This antenna is not cheap.  You don't want to spend your money un-necessarily by getting the wrong antenna and/or installing this incorrectly.

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Scott Fella Sat, 02/15/2014 - 16:33
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What are you really trying to do. Antenna placement depends in where you want your signal to cover. Cisco is referencing that the antenna is placed above power lines, but if you have clear line of sight, you don't have to place it that high. Antenna placement and downtilt depends in what you want covered. It's still a good idea to survey and place the antenna at various height and angles to see what coverage best suits your needs.

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scottjsee Sat, 02/15/2014 - 16:48
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I'm trying to understand how high to mount these antennas to provide maximum coverage.. I want to make sure I mount these low enough to provide coverage starting from 10 feet way, but not jeopardize distance on being too low.


The area is totally flat, all homes are exactly the same height.. I'm using 2602E's at full 23db with 25 foot LMR400 cables.. Do you see any reason why this combination wouldn't supply a nice coverage cell? I know I'll have to tweek the TX power output on the AP to not overpower the signal.. An appropriate general target connection/coverage distance is what, 400 feet?

Scott Fella Sat, 02/15/2014 - 16:52
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The issue is signal attenuation not signal coverage. You have high EIRP output, but your client devices will most likely be inside, so what's their signal look like from
What the AP hears?

Here is a white paper to understand antenna pattern also.

http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/collateral/wireless/aironet-antenn...

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scottjsee Sat, 02/15/2014 - 17:00
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Is there a better antenna to consider? I just want 10 people to have a basic, nice, normal web surfing experience.. From these ap/antenna combinations..  I understand what you mean about the EIRP being to high, how far should I turn down the TX on these ap's?

Scott Fella Sat, 02/15/2014 - 17:05
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It's all about what works. You can turn down the TX power, but you will loose coverage. The concept is the same for indoor wireless and trying to match client power or total EIRP. Cable and connectors attenuate signal and this can help calculate the TX power you need for the radio.

Here is a site that I use to calculate cable loss to determine my EIRP required.

http://timesmicrowave.com/calculator/

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Leo Laohoo Sat, 02/15/2014 - 16:40
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Can somone help me visualize the signal spread of this antenna?

RED lines:  Place or lie this antenna on it's flat side.  The direction of the signal being thrown when it's on it's flat and wide side is what this line projects. 


BLUE lines:  Place or lie this antenna on it's thin side.  This is what the antenna pattern looks like. 


This means that this antenna is meant to be wall-mounted.  Not ceiling mounted.  Let's say you install this on a wall pointing straight in front and the Cisco logo is pointing UP. 


If you put your back to the wall, the antenna is right above your head, the RED line is the antenna signal being propagated from left to right.  The BLUE lines indicate the signal being spread from the floor up. 


Based on this, this means that the antenna can cover a wide horizontal arc (half moon) but the vertical arc is limited to a knife shape.  So you would want to take advantage of this by tilting this antenna DOWNWARDS.  Can't tell you how many degrees because this will be based entirely on how HIGH you install the antenna.


I'm with Scott.  Get someone to install this correctly.  This antenna is not cheap.  You don't want to spend your money un-necessarily by getting the wrong antenna and/or installing this incorrectly.

scottjsee Sat, 02/15/2014 - 16:51
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We're testing AP/Antenna cobinations. These seem to look good on paper for outdoor hotspots..

scottjsee Sat, 02/15/2014 - 17:32
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Dang after reading your post a couple times and looking at the elevation signal of this antenna I'm worried.. This knife shape looks horrible for the kind of deployment I want to cover.. Combined with what Scott mentioned about the EIRP, I'm not sure what to do..


I want to provide enough coverage for clients to use comfortable in their recliners but far enough to make an impact.. I've got 6 of these antennas to test along with 6 x 2602e's.. The idea is this (I've talked about this in my previous threads):


Outdoor wifi deployment - RV and resort home location, outdoor 3 post towers ROHN 25r towers. Testing this style on 2 of our 100 towers.. Once we find a GOOD solution (all locations are the same) we're upgrading the other 98 towers.. So, were testing options.. This just happens to be the first equipment option.


3x26023's with 3 x 2588Pm3 antennas mount just above the roof line (17-20 feet)..


I think it might be time to go back to the drawing board.. Any suggestions would be insurmountably welcome..

Leo Laohoo Sat, 02/15/2014 - 17:47
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I want to provide enough coverage for clients to use comfortable in their recliners but far enough to make an impact

Out of curiosity, what kind of deployment is this???? 

This knife shape looks horrible for the kind of deployment I want to cover

I'd like to correct myself.  Make it "c lam" shape.  It's not sharp.   It's oval. 


Just a reminder that this AP is very strong power.  8 dBi is nothing to sneeze at.  The wireless clients will be able to hear the signal but if the wireless clients are too far away, the AP won't be able to hear the return signal.

Leo Laohoo Sat, 02/15/2014 - 17:50
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3x26023's with 3 x 2588Pm3 antennas mount just above the roof line (17-20 feet)..

Depends on the distance from the location of the wireless clients', Steve, Scott and/or even George posted several times about pointing the antenna downwards in the direction of wireless clients and let the wireless signal propagate by "bouncing" on the floor works well too.  So you are not too far away.  All you need is to install one or two and check out the result before adding more. 


Good idea to do a site survey using 802.11a only.

scottjsee Sat, 02/15/2014 - 19:54
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95% of the clients are using laptops and mobile devices. I remember reading laptops and most tablets have a tx power output of around 2.5mw and 0-2 dbi internal antenna. I don't see any reason to propagate a 5ghz signal further that 400 feet.


Our current b/g cisco 1310 deployment is just insanely saturated and dosn't work anymore. There is so much saturation and interference it just unfathomable. inSSIDer measured 24 x 2.4gh SSID at one test location, while 5ghz was zero!


Vacation RV destinations in Florida, California, Arizona are just impossible. Everyone has a $500k RV, 4 mobile devices and cellular tethered enable hot spots.. 2 years ago, one resort I performed a survey at mesured 620 x 2.4ghz SSID in our intended coverage areas..There just is no other choice.. Rip down 300 2.4ghz ap's and replace them with 300 new 5.ghz.


The biggest problem of all, WIFI is as important now as electicity hookups.


Anyway.. I've read the attached article's for all of you, thank you for your assistance.. I've very surprised to see ALL outdoor dual band or N outdoor antennas have a nearly identical vertical polarization and 180deg front-to-back dbi ratio, almost nothing. I'm not sure if I'm still not understanding the conditions, or not understanding it correctly, but why would these outdoor mast mounted antennas have such a great coverage ABOVE the antenna but poor vertical coverage BELOW the antenna towards the ground? Seems backwards.


I've researched most of the Cisco and Terrawavve outdoor rated antennas. This Terrawave N antenna is the only one that looks like it may perform well for my needs. But again that 180deg pattern is almost zero..


http://www.terra-wave.com/shop/80211nac-245-ghz-6-dbi-quad-patch-antenna-with-rptnc-plug-connector-p-2979.html


Any additions thoughts and tips are more that greatly appreciated.

Leo Laohoo Sat, 02/15/2014 - 20:18
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I'm here in Australia.  Wireless deployment in public places have just started to take-off (abiet slowly).  Some business have realized (kicking and screaming) that free public wireless can be a magnet forteenagers.  Teenagers with cash to spend.  Some business establishments, like caravan parks, think wifi is just a frivolity that they can do without. 


I'm not sure how your RV's are parked or arranged, but I should take the example of a car park:  One straight line with cars parked at either side of line ... like the bone of a fish.  If this is the case, then I'd like to offer this: 


1.  It is useless, in an environment where there is so much 802.11b saturation, to put your 802.11b/g radio at full power and full data rates.  You might want to consider disabling 802.11b/g data rates from 1 Mbps to 11 Mbps.  Make sure you leave 12 Mbps either at "Mandatory" or "Supported".  


2.   Take four RVs parked side-by-side (one side) and another four in the other and brings to a total of 8 RV.  Stick a pole with an AP.  This should be adequate. 


Again, without proper site survey it would be difficult.  Makes it more difficult when nearly all these RV got metal all over.  Park eight of them and stick an AP in the middle and you've got yourself a full-blown reflector.  You could potentially contact the ISS from your RV park.  Joke. 

Scott Fella Sat, 02/15/2014 - 20:27
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Just to add.... many of the RV parks I have seen, you don't see many people what really depend on wifi... to be honest, when we have gone out to these parks, I would depend more on my cellular hotspot.  Now I understand that you want to provide wireless, and you have to look at it as best effort.  People will have their own wifi hotspot, and others might not.  Provide good coverage in areas where users will be away from their RV.  Provide RF coverage for those who might want to use your wireless when they are in or outside their RV. 


RF propagation from the antenna forms more like an oval when you increase gain and more like a circle when you don't have any gain or very low gain..... this is theoretical!!!! People tend to use a donut:)  This is why having the antenna lower, can provide coverage below the antenna, in an RV park, you can mount the antenna high enough since I doubt you have RV's below the mast.  Some antennas will have built in down tilt and some will not, in which you need to adjust the angle of the antenna.  Testing it out in one location is the ideal way to understand what can work and what may not work.. It will give you an idea of how much coverage and what the users will expect from the wireless.


Thanks,

Scott

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Leo Laohoo Sat, 02/15/2014 - 20:31
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Another thing ... Your choice of AP, 2600, is good enough.  This is where I'd start considering models of AP.  I'd never go for 1600.  Won't have the "oomph" to what you are doing.

Scott Fella Sat, 02/15/2014 - 20:39
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Have you tried to look at the 1530's by chance?  I would think going with an outdoor AP might help with cost of having to heat and cool an enclosure for the AP's.... these are replacements for the 1300's and 1400's.


Thanks,

Scott

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scottjsee Sat, 02/15/2014 - 22:03
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1530's, Yes we have, it was on our short list of AP's. I loved the 500mw tx output but hated the price.. We installed the 1262N's which I really liked, but they went EOL, so we started using the suggested 2602e's.


I was approved to use a virtual lan controller, but after learning it's $100 per ap lic after the initial 5 it's not cost effective.


I would love to have a survey done, I have done a few, but to be honest.. The resorts are just too big for me.. I have contacted several vender neutral consulting companies, but all they want to do is sell me their services, contracts, equipment, etc. I can't find someone in the greater Phoenix area who is willing to work with me instead of against me.


We have a unique situation, where over the past 5 years have deployed an extensive WIFI infrastructure (towers, equipment sheds, circuits) across 100's of hot spots at our resorts. In the past we were concerned about coverage area, making wifi excisable everywhere, where now my goals are to reduce the cell size and increase usability and performance.


One of my current issues is degraded DSL technology in these location, many are on old CO based ADSL and bonded pair circuits. We upgrading from 3 ap's at each WIFI hotspot to 6, but only behind a 40mb/5mb connection. Some are as bad as 20mb/2mb.. It's crazy.. I've spent countless hours with the big 3 cable carriers building out carrier services to replace the old copper lines, but none have been willing to absorb the construction fee's without a HUGE monthly commitment rate, well into the $100k's.. I'm going to look into bringing in additional circuits where I can and load balance on SVI's to hopefully accommodate/improve the bottleneck.


What would your thoughts be of using my last mentioned Terrawave 5dbi sector.


Most of these hot spots are located in high density areas with 360deg of coverage area available. Maybe it might be best to deploying 3 x Omni's. Would those bring the connection cell in a little closer, give a better floor coverage? how high would one of these be recommenced on a tower mast?


Terrawave 6dbi M6060060MO1D43602

http://www.terra-wave.com/shop/245-ghz-6-dbi-mimo-outdoor-omnidirectional-antenna-with-rptnc-plug-connector-4packdual-band-leads-p-2103.html


Cisco 4dbi AIR-ANT2544V4M-R=

http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/wireless/antenna/installation/guide/ant2544v4m-r.html


Thanks for your intilligence..

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Scott Fella Sun, 02/16/2014 - 04:56
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I've used both of those antennas and they work great. I would keep them around 15'-25' up if I were you. If your going to deploy 3 AP's in each mast, that might actually works okay. You should be able to work with Terrawave and maybe get a sample of an omni or patch so you can get an idea of the coverage. That is what I would do. You don't have to survey everything, but if you have a good idea of what the ap and antenna can give you, then you have at least an understanding of your coverage pattern.

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scottjsee Sun, 02/16/2014 - 08:39
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Considering these towers are for mobility users would I be better off with the 4dbi or 6dbi omni's? I don't want the signal going further than a guest will be able to access and use the technology..


Additionally.. What kind of location would the AIR-ANT2588PM3's shine based on their coverage patterns? Rectangular pool areas, tennis courts, softball fields.. Up hill deployments?

scottjsee Sun, 02/16/2014 - 08:55
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As far as EIRP is concirned. Looks like the 2603e at full tx is 23dbi, the LMR400 cabling I'm using is rated at -3.4dbi for my current lengths..


Origional 8dbi Cisco antenna gives me and EIRP of 27.6

Terrawave 6dbi omni is 25.6

Cisco 4dbi omni is 24.6


Does that look accurate, how do I go about caculating the max distance of signal coverage. So I can reduce TX power to manage the wireless cell to aproximilty the distance wireless laptop users and mobile devices can connect to?

Scott Fella Sun, 02/16/2014 - 15:55
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You can't really measure distance by using EIRP. It's best again to just set one up and test. I would see what 23dbm - 17dbm gives you and I would also check what the Ap is seeing the client at not too much what the client is seeing the AP.

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scottjsee Tue, 02/25/2014 - 15:38
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Finished mounting the first 3 of these today.. Unfortunately, I learned my laptop only supports 2.4ghz so I can only test mobility user connections with and iPad error until my new mini broadcom dual band card arives in a couple days..


I was reall impressed with these antenna's.. Everywhere I could see the signal (up to 600 feet) I was connecting at reasonable speeds..


I have a question:


I'm using the 2602E ap's which have 4 x RP-TNC inputs.. But these AIR-ANT2588P3M-M antennas only have 3 x N outputs.. Right now I'm using the AP's TNC port 1 (to antenna A), 2 (to antenna B) and 3 (to antenna c) with the 4th TNC on the ap as empty..  The AP is set to diversity, and I'm only using the 5ghz..


I was wondering, would it be better to use Cisco's 6dbi AIR-ANT2566P4W-R? It's the same general beam width,, but has the 4 x TNC connectors at the Antenna and it's listed as a recommended antenna with this AP..Am I going to have any real performace advantage using that extra input?


additionally.. I tested all sorts of heghts, 19' - 28' and tilt.. Here are a couple pictures of how it looks..




tilt.JPG


tower.JPG

Scott Fella Tue, 02/25/2014 - 15:54
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I personal would use the recommended antennas. It really comes down to cost and if using the ones you have now works, then that's better than nothing. I have used both the patch and the omni's and both have worked out well

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scottjsee Tue, 02/25/2014 - 16:10
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It's not a cost thing, it's a deploy it correctly thing..


I'm going to upgrade 100+ of these towers.. I bought only enough equipment to test 5ghz MIMO on 2 tower (6 x 2602e's and 6 x AIR-ANT2588P3M-M)


What benefit will I receive on using the recommended ANT2566P4W with 4 pig tails? Am I loosing performance of the technology on only utilizing 3 of the 4 TNC outputs on the 2602e's?


Thanks..

Scott Fella Tue, 02/25/2014 - 16:20
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What you loose is the number of spatial streams, so yes you do loose something. I too would get the correct antenna.

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Scott Fella Tue, 02/25/2014 - 16:31
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Scott,

You might want to review this also as it shows you the max TX power for 1, 2, 3, or 4 antennas.

http://www.cisco.com/c/dam/en/us/td/docs/wireless/access_point/channels/...

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Arun More Thu, 10/30/2014 - 00:13
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hi,

 

i m going to install • AIR-CAP1532E-A-K9 and • AIR-ANT2588P3M-N= but i m unable to find a cable which connects antenna to ap. could u please advice ?

Scott Fella Thu, 10/30/2014 - 06:14
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Per the antenna reference guide:

Cisco offers low-loss 5 ft. and 10 ft. coaxial cables, parts AIR-CAB005LL-N and AIR-CAB010LL-N, respectively, for connection from the antenna to the access point. These cables have one straight male type-N connector and one right angle male type-N connector. To use all of the ports on the AIR-ANT2588P3M-N three cables will be needed. 

If you need custom cable's, then give Tessco a call and they can provide you with the cable you need.

https://www.tessco.com

Scott

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